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Global Warming, not what you think.
05.23.06, 00:42:47
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Alright, I was having the discusion (Because there's nothing else to do on a ten hour van trip) and I want to know what the going theory is as to why Carbondioxide gas emisions are supposedly heating up the planet. Im pretty sure that the theory goes something like, the carbondioxide sits in a layer of the upper atmosphere and creates an insulating layer thusly increasing the ambient temperature like a green house, hence the buzz term Greenhouse Gasses. If that isn't true, please correct me, but then if anyone can find it, who has actually conducted studies to see if this theory is actually true, because... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but... Carbondioxide is not a new thing to the planet and if it IS a greenhouse gas, why has it not caused this problem already?
Anyways, once that question has been answered then please go ahead and bash away at the 'Is global warming actually a problem' question if you all feel like it. |
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Global warming is suddenly a serious problem because the amount of carbon dioxide emissions in the past hundred years or so have been exponentially higher than they were before mankind came around.
Global warming is also predicted to get exponentially worse. The reason for this is that the polar ice caps reflect light, which results in less heat in the earth. However, water absorbs light, which results in more heat for the earth, and the more water there is, the more heat will be absorbed.
And, to dispel a common misconception about the concept, global warming does not mean that the planet will get universally hotter. While the average temperature overall does indeed get warmer, the intensity of the seasons gets larger as well, so the winters will be colder. (I believe this is also responsible for the increased force of hurricanes as of late, but I'm not entirely certain about that).
Anyway. I'm quite a bit of a Cassandra with respect to this problem, as you can probably tell. But there's really very little I can do to solve the problem except live my life as efficiently as I can, and attempt to educate others about it as well. So meh. |
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Yes... Partial answer there... I already got the theory about global warming, what I'm after is any sort of imperical evidence that it is Carbondioxide that is causing it, or even, a sound theory as to how it is causing it.
See, there's a perfectly good reason why the ice caps are melting and that is from increased solar radiation due to thinner ozone layers at the polls. And so, if the reason for global warming was due to that, wouldn't the world's limited resources be better spent trying to reverse THAT problem, rather than falling over our asses trying to breath less? (And of course drive cleaner cars and what not) |
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Alright, a bit of explanation as to how this works:
The suns rays give off energy, which is shown as light, which brings heat, basic stuff. The rays pass through the upper atmosphere, and are shown down to Earth. Some of this heat is absorbed, while the rest is deflected back into space. But the problem is, the Carbon Dioxide (CO2) that accumulates in the upper atmosphere acts as a Saran Wrap type deal, it allows the rays in, but when they try to leave, it traps them, sending the energy back down to Earth, where it is trapped.
Trees are one of nature's ways to deal with CO2, since the leaves absorb it to achieve photosynthesis, as well as organisms whose lungs trade CO2 for Oxygen. It's one big filtration system. However, as far as the trees are concerned, the rainforests are being destroyed, and trees in general are decreasing. Also, you have airplanes who burn CO2 directly into the atmosphere, which has no chance of being filtered. Straight shot into it, increasing the CO2 levels considerably.
And The Man made a point, the seasons get more...."into it". Winters get colder, Summers get hotter, etc. Spring time rain is packed full of acid rain, due to the emissions, and it's one big ugly future. But back to the seasons, the theory is, that while the seasons are increasing in their extremes, that we'll get a winter that is so cold, the planet will not snap out of it. Hence, bringing forth a worldwide ice-age. If you've seen the Day After Tomorrow, you'll sort of get this concept, but the ice-age will cleanse and "reset" the atmosphere so to speak. But in doing so, it will make survival extremely hard for the human race as well as other species, and the population on Earth will basically bottleneck.
One other tid-bit, the atmospheric composition used to stand at 20% O2 (Oxygen), and other gases made up the remaining 80%. (Such as CO2, and N, etc.) Recently, it has dropped to only 19% Oxygen, since the CO2 levels have increased, taking over the composition ratings of the O2. Living organisms need (almost positive) 17% oxygen composition to be able to breathe the air. With emissions on the rise, this may drop another 1-2% in our lifetime.
Steps taken to reduce emissions include the Kyoto Protocol, which Japan (one of the leaders in CO2 emission) is commited to, but President Bush withdrew US participation. I'm personally a supporter of this, since it surely is a step in the right direction. Other measures include stricter motor vehicle emission laws, and "Green Energy" by power companies to provide cleaner energy to the community. Electric Hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius, and the Honda Civic Hybrid with Senergy drives, also light a brighter future, but it requires steps to be taken from everyone internationally, not just a couple companies and a handful of people..
I just hope we do something soon, because the worst case scenarios if we don't are...well...pretty bad. |
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Yup yup, I get the idea of what a greenhouse gas is. The thing about CO2 is that, to the best of my knowledge it's about the same weight as O2, infact, if anything, it's heavier... And that means that it shouldn't be collecting in the upper atmosphere unless I have my first physics law backwards again (It's happened. Anyone who's got drunk enough knows what Im talking about)
Secondly, while humans have been part and parcel to a sudden increase in CO2, it's not like theres any more Carbon and Oxygen then there has ever been and if Carbon dioxide did tend to collect in the upper atmosphere, then wouldn't it all be up there already? If CO2 collects floats on top of O2, then how do photosynthetic plants and plancton get enough of it to convert it back to O2 again?
So basically what I'm asking for is a lab report that says the insulative qualities of CO2 rich atomsphere are AT ALL different from those of a CO2 deficient atmosphere. |
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The only thing that I'm wondering about the greenhouse effect, is why isnt CO2 able to escape?
The o-zone layer apparently has holes in it (this is something different I know, but it sort of links in together) which means the atmosphere is no longer trapping some of the UV rays from the sun, and so this too is heating up the earth, and its also increasing the risk of getting skin cancer.
Nowback on track, surely the CO2 emissions would be able to escape through these holes in the o-zone layer, hence releaving some of the greenhouse effect. Maybe thats just not possible for certain reason, but as I havent looked into this much and wasnt all that great at biology in school, then I dont really know. Maybe one of you can tell me.
Of course even if this is happening, the o-zone layer is still getting damaged and so most of the effects of global warming would still occur, but just not as quickly as first predicted.
Personally, I dont think the polluting of the atmosphere really has anything to do with heating up the earth and the strange weather conditions. This sort of thing has happened before, way before pollution of this kind even existed.
During the time of the dinosaurs the earth was very warm, it was full of rainforests, and rainforest type conditions (sunny one minute, raining the next). The earths core was warmer back then, yes, but I doubt it was that much warmer than it is now. The weather we're getting now is very warm one minute and raining the next, at times.
There was also the ice age. How the hell can anyone explain that? I havent really read much on it, so there could actually be an explanation, but it still seems pretty random to me.
Basically, I just think this is a natural occurance that happens every few million years. Its mostly likely something to do with the earths path around the sun. I believe this theory is correct as I've read 2 or 3 articles on this theory, and they all seemed very possible.
Also, so many things about the greenhouse effect are uncertain, that it just makes me doubt it. I'm sure its really not helping at all, and it probably has other harmful effects, but I dont think its the main cause for the heating of the earth. |
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The funny thing is, no one has been able to either prove or disprove global warming.
People say the polar ice caps and the world's glaciers are melting. That's not true. Some are melting, yes. But others are actually growing. And many of the ones that are melting are melting for reasons other than rising temperatures. Some are melting due to deforestation. Kilimanjaro's glacier, for example, has actually been melting since the 1800s (before the industrialization that has supposedly lead to global warming even started). Why? Because of deforestation. Cutting down the rainforest below the mountains means less moisture in the air. Less moisture means less snow on the mountain. Less snow means that what melts is not replenished as it had been previously.
People say that global warming will raise sea level. But sea level has been rising since the beginning of the Holocene, more than 10,000 years ago. In fact, current computer models show that the rate at which it has been rising is decreasing.
People say that's it's going to cause an increase in catastropic weather... and point to the outbreak of hurricanes in the gulf of mexico last year as proof. But there's really been no increase in huricanne activity. Only periodic spikes in the number of hurricanes that hit. See data from the National Hurricane Center, below:
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml
Additionally, the amounts of temperature increase varies all over the planet. Places like cities, for example, suffer from the heat island effect, wherein heat generated by thousands of people, animals, and machinary all living in close quarters results in a net increase in local temperature.
In short, I think that, while human activty may have some effect on global temperatures, it is not a significant one. The planet has it's own cycle that spans millions of years. We are currently living in an interglacial period between ice ages, characterized by a warming trend. Whether or not our current warming trend is any more pronounced than those that have occurred regularly in the past is subject to debate.
Quote:
The only thing that I'm wondering about the greenhouse effect, is why isnt CO2 able to escape?
The o-zone layer apparently has holes in it (this is something different I know, but it sort of links in together) which means the atmosphere is no longer trapping some of the UV rays from the sun, and so this too is heating up the earth, and its also increasing the risk of getting skin cancer.
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CO2 in doesn't esacpe for the same reason that our entire atmosphere doesn't just drift off into space. The earth's gravity keeps it here. The ozone layer doesn't hold the gases in. It's just another layer of gas. It's not like water leaking out of a hole in a bucket. Ozone holes are just areas where the concentration of ozone has thinned.
CO2 concentration is not changed by CO2 leaving the planet. It is changed by natural processes that recycle it into other gases (for example, trees and other plants that recycle it into oxygen) |
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Last edited by Kionae : 05.23.06 at 13:30:22.
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@CO2 escaping etc:
The ozone layer is not some kinda hard shell that keeps all the air in, it's simply a rather thin layer of ozone (Oł) which happens to block part of the UV rays coming from the sun. Massive panic was started when a hole was found in this layer, and blames were put on stuff like CFK's or whatever you call 'em, gasses in aerosols.
Thing is, ozone is created during lightning (hold an electric lighter near your nose and smell it, you can smell a distinct smell - that's ozon). The hole in the ozone layer was near the north pole. Lightning hardly occurs on the north pole, do the math.
Greenpeace and such often overreact such things, and they're often based on events that have only recently been discovered, and often not observed over a long span of time.
On global warming, the actual comparison to current average temperature has occurred with the help of stuff like ice cores, or large layers of ice that have been around for hundreds, sometimes even thousands of years. Those are bored out and analysed, and the average temperature of one time is determined by measuring certain elements of the ice, if I recall correctly the amount of miniature bubbles in the ice or CO2 trapped in it, something like that.
There's no way to confirm wether that's the actual temperature of that time. True, it has been investigated thoroughly, and compared with other sources, but still, it's not really trustworthy in my opinion.
On global warning, part two. You sometimes see a graph when it comes to global warming, showing a huge spike at now. Two comments on that: The scale starts at Xthousand years ago, to two thousand, fifteenhundred, thousand, 500, 400, 300, 200, etc, the timescale goes slower, so it does look larger. The scale on the side though... The average temperature is only 1 to 1.5 degrees (celsius) higher nowadays than it was thousands of years ago.
Sure, that can have huge impacts, but it might also be a temporary fad.
On preventive measures, like the Kyoto treaty. I'm pretty sure it's too late for that already. The temperature has risen, the planet has warmed up. Ice caps melt, water rises, weather changes. Because of that, the global flow of water will slow down and eventually stop, and a new ice age will come. Or so Discovery Channel tells me / us.
We'll have to see wether that actually happens though. Truth is, as figures, statistics, and personal experiences say, weather's changing. Wether that's just at random or a direct result of global warming, pollution, or whatnot is not certain in my perspective. It might be, but we'll have to see it in the long run.
If it's all true though, I'm pretty sure that the events set in motion will take decades to return to normal, and that things will only get worse. True, it probably would get a lot worse if we all kept on burning everything we see, but still.
I'm sure that with modern and evolving technology, we'll eventually be independant from fossile fuels and the likes, even if it costs way more than the cheap fossils. But until that time, we'll just have to manage. And even if we do, it's probably too late to stop the events already set in motion. If any, that is. |
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